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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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M109 short barrelled 105mm
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 06:11 AM UTC

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Aka the M108, seen at http://moxingfans.com/m/view.php?aid=5796 should make someone happy.

I expect it will be an improvement over the Italeri kit.



I don't know why you would call it M109. There was a lot of differences between M108 and even the early short barreled M109, not just the gun itself. It is just that: M108. Same basic components, but a different vehicle.

And being an improvement over the Italeri kit isn't particularly difficult, as that kit was crap. When I built mine, in the end I used only a few parts from the Italeri kit, the rest is either scratchbuilt, taken from Kinetic M109A2, aftermarket or from AFV Club M109A2...




I like it and I want one in my collection...
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 07:24 AM UTC

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Ok, a M108 from either AFV Club or HobbyFan; that is nice - although I prefer it to be an official AFV Club kit (no warpy resin like with some HF kits).

Has anyone else spotted the M113 on the right in the photograph. It seems to have a small turret of some sorts, and has a .50 on top; could it be an Okinawa turret (which didn't come with an extra .50 though) or what?v
Gentlemen, your opinions please



Cadillac Gauge made two or three turrets for the M113 hull. I don't remember anybody in the Army using them, but think Australia did. There's also the small turret used in the flame thrower version. I don't know who supplied that one, but was probably FMC. There was also a larger one with a 75mm gun on it.

trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 07:42 AM UTC

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Plus the towed gun is a little more accurate. ( Note: not enough to worry about). Just depends on the job requirements.
Gary



Not sure why you believe a towed howitzer is more accurate than a self propelled howitzer.

Generally speaking the CEP (circular error probability) for artillery ammunition is based on the round and charge not the platform which fires it.

I've got a bunch of my old TFT's(Tabular Firing Tables) from my time as FDO in the basement and I'll double check, but pretty sure it's the ammo and NOT the platform the tube is mounted to which makes the difference.



It's engineering and simple geometry. Towed guns work off a perfect plain with three points. SPG are claimed to as well, but not really. The real issue is too many moving parts during recoil. Plus the suspension becomes an issue even when locked up. Watched the M109a7 in a film clip shooting a low charge. The track rolled back almost a foot! Not good on the other end!
If you were to go to Artillary School at Sill, the three point suspension is drummed into your head daily for a reason. It's to make the second round land where it's supposed to. Yet every gun moves on recoil from the first shot. The trick is to limit movement in anyway you can. A typical first shot on a 155 towed gun is three to four inches, and none after that. the classic M110 was renowned for consistency between shots, but the old 8" towed was even more accurate with the same basic barrel. Why? Perfect three point suspension. The round itself is known for accuracey, but still only as good as the gun!
Gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 07:43 AM UTC

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I have to agree with Tom here. A towed gun is not inherently more accurate than an SP gun. It comes down to the projo CEP, powder temp, MET, etc. that effects accuracy.



I'll debate that point!
Glt
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 08:58 AM UTC
I did go to the Artillery School at Ft Sill and I still disagree with your claim about towed being more accurate. If the M109A7 moved when fired, the suspension was not locked out. I have fired M109A6s (same chassis as the A7) and it does not roll when firing unless it is not properly locked out.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 09:42 AM UTC
30 seconds from coming to a halt to first round out of the barrel
30 seconds after last round to get on the road again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwuDJOXEOM8

Road speed is 70 km/h or 43.5 mph, range 500 km or 310 miles
/ Robin
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 11:21 AM UTC

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30 seconds from coming to a halt to first round out of the barrel
30 seconds after last round to get on the road again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwuDJOXEOM8

Road speed is 70 km/h or 43.5 mph, range 500 km or 310 miles
/ Robin



I'm sure it is great on prepared roads, but that huge space between the front wheel and first set of rear wheels would make cross-country travel ability almost non-existent. I'll stick w/tracked howitzers.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 10:31 PM UTC

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30 seconds from coming to a halt to first round out of the barrel
30 seconds after last round to get on the road again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwuDJOXEOM8

Road speed is 70 km/h or 43.5 mph, range 500 km or 310 miles
/ Robin



I'm sure it is great on prepared roads, but that huge space between the front wheel and first set of rear wheels would make cross-country travel ability almost non-existent. I'll stick w/tracked howitzers.



It works in Swedish terrain, we use this type of articulated chassis in the forestry business. No problemo, I have seen what it looks like afterwards. The articulation adds a lot to the mobility/abilitiy of the chassis. Most of the terrain is actually quite easy. There are difficult patches in the terrain but those can be avoided. The worst problem is actually soft soil and marsches/moors and in those cases both types of vehicles will need to find a way around.

With a firing range of 40 km using conventional ammo there will always be a usable firing position that can be reached with this type of vehicle. The relatively high road speed makes it possible to go around too difficult terrain instead of trying to force a way through it.

The Archer has been designed for Swedish and Norwegian conditions where there is a relatively dense network of roads (from main roads down to forestry trails). The biggest obstacles in Swedish terrain are actually the trees and then it doesn't matter if you ride on tracks or wheels, the angles of approach/departure or the distance between wheels, the trees will stop you.


My intention with the video was to show that a modern SP-gun/howitzer can get off the first rounds much quicker today than in the late 60'ies - eraly 70'ies
I assume that the later versions of the M109 also has shorter times to the first round compared to the 60'ies - 70'ies

I think the Archer has a slight advantage in ground clearance, the basic A30D dumper chassis has 45 cm (vs 40 cm for the M109A7). In many parts of Sweden the ground is relatively even but it is sprinkled with rocks and sometimes also old tree stumps. The articulation, also in the roll axis, and ground clearance makes it possible to handle this type of terrain.

/ Robin
thathaway3
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2019 - 10:43 AM UTC

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I did go to the Artillery School at Ft Sill and I still disagree with your claim about towed being more accurate. If the M109A7 moved when fired, the suspension was not locked out. I have fired M109A6s (same chassis as the A7) and it does not roll when firing unless it is not properly locked out.



I also not only went to the Artillery School at Fort Sill for both OBC and OAC, but was also asked to come back to the USAR session to teach gunnery.

If anything, the additional mass provided by the SP howitzer will help absorb recoil better than the lesser mass provided by a towed howitzer.

The repeatability of point of impact of a standard ballistic artillery round is a function of the projo, and powder charge consistency, and not the platform the tube is mounted on.

"Too many moving parts during recoil" causing less accuracy?

I AM an engineer with 30 years experience in automotive design, specifically suspension. That ain't how it works.
27-1025
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2019 - 04:26 PM UTC
This video has a short section on the M108 as well as other stuff to make any Redleg smile.
https://youtu.be/7o1MloQoRAQ
Bonaparte84
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2019 - 09:25 PM UTC
I've been reading this thread with great interest, as there is so much expertise around here. However, while I am no military man nor artillery expert, I don't believe there is much substance to the comparison towed versus self-propelled with regards to accuracy anymore.
If there were disadvantages, they have become obsolete due to technological improvements. Modern artillery systems have the ability to automatically reevaluate and adjust their azimuth and depression before every shot, taking into account barrel temperature, air temperature, wind, recoil from the previous shot etc..
I take as a case in point the MRSI ability (Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact) of modern systems. Such an advanced technique would not even be worth considering if something as simple as a tracked chassis as firing platform posed a significant problem.
Just my 2 cents
18Bravo
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Posted: Sunday, May 19, 2019 - 03:53 PM UTC

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Maybe more people will be familiar with the M109 than the 108, or incorrectly identify the 108 as an M109.



Especially if people like you keep incorrectly identifying it and not correct the misidentified post. It is an M108. You should call it an M108.



Now now, let's cut Kylie some slack. He's from down unda. Besides Gino, I seem to remember even you misidentifying an M110 once.

But that's just the beginning of what's making me break out the shot glasses, and I don't even drink that much.

I happened to have been placed with the gun crew that held the U.S. hip shoot record at three minutes and forty nine seconds to round out. They still hold the record by the way.

Ummm... Whuh? I know a Paladin chief who can make the shot in about thirty seconds.

And a one one niner can do it in far less time as well. Especially if you dispense with the base plate and fire that beast still hitched to the HMMWV. Yes, that's right.

It's engineering and simple geometry. Towed guns work off a perfect plain with three points.

I'm not even sure what this means. If it implies the towed piece has to be level, here's a nugget that Google is not your friend with finding:

The M119A2 can fire from a 90 mil cant left to right. The A3 can fire from a 220 mil cant.

A towed gun is not inherently more accurate than an SP gun. It comes down to the projo CEP, powder temp, MET, etc. that effects accuracy.

It's even more than that. Lot number (powder and projo) barometric pressure, forks,(rotation of the earth) wind speed/direction, barrel wear... But those completely ignore the role of a switched on section and Gunnery Sergeant.
There's 2 mils allowable difference between the safety circle and the piece. 10 mils allowable difference between the safety circle and the GLPS. And speaking of safety circle, if it has not been properly declinated, that introduced even more error into the equation. Those are all responsibilities of the enlisted crewmen who don't settle for 2 mil error. They settle for nothing less than zero mils. Plus the fact the longer you let the DAGR average, the more accurate your GLPS becomes. All in all, we still have to bear this in mind: It's an area weapon. You want dispersion. Dropping two rounds in the same crater defeats the purpose. If you want that kind of accuracy fire a Copperhead or Excaliber.

As for whether towed or self propelled can go more places, the airlifted howitzers immediately jumped to mind, and someone else has covered that already. How about this?



Here's a reverse shot:



A thirty one ton behemoth isn't going there.

And here's another. A good picture is worth a thousand words:



That's the same towed howitzer in the background. You know, behind the empty LMTV, that needed to be extracted with a HEMMT. No Paladin is traversing that terrain either.

Lastly there's the fact that a HMMWV/M119 can negotiate between trees and other obstacles more easily the a Paladin with a big honkin' 52 caliber tube sticking out front.

These are just the musings of an 18B though.

Then there's this regarding the Archer:

I'm sure it is great on prepared roads, but that huge space between the front wheel and first set of rear wheels would make cross-country travel ability almost non-existent. I'll stick w/tracked howitzers.

Again, that is an instance where we rely upon competent junior officers and senior NCO's to conduct proper RSOP, and not the wheel spacing of a piece of equipment. In my world, it's still about what the soldier can do first.
thathaway3
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 02:28 AM UTC

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Ummm... Whuh? I know a Paladin chief who can make the shot in about thirty seconds.




Thanks for posting that. I seem to recall doing a hipshoot with the old M109A1. We knew that there'd be a hipshoot on this particular road march and there were only a few Firing Points where you could shoot from. The XO had figured out the basics and had them available so when the call came in, he had already figured out a good azimuth of lay for the base piece. From the time the howitzer STOPPED until the first round went down range was just under two minutes. Not bad for laying with an M2 compass.
m75
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 03:23 AM UTC
Gentlemen, gentlemen......

The thread seems to have drifted away from the original subject, which is a model of an artillery piece/vehicle.

Can we re-focus our efforts? No disrespect intended, but it appears as if egos are being brought into the thread. Full credit belongs to all of us with experience with the overall topic of indirect fire, and let's continue to remain on-topic, if that's alright?
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 03:32 AM UTC

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Gentlemen, gentlemen......

The thread seems to have drifted away from the original subject, which is a model of an artillery piece/vehicle.

Can we re-focus our efforts? No disrespect intended, but it appears as if egos are being brought into the thread. Full credit belongs to all of us with experience with the overall topic of indirect fire, and let's continue to remain on-topic, if that's alright?



Bravo Jim, fascinating though some of this has been - some.

Any further tips for making a decent fist from my ancient Italeri M108 other than reorganising the turret roof and making double doors on the hull rear? Any suggestions - other than buy the AFV Club M109 - welcome.

Brian
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 07:10 AM UTC
Well I did see that AFV Club is releasing an M108, so that's an option now...

Damon.
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 08:10 AM UTC

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Well I did see that AFV Club is releasing an M108, so that's an option now...

Damon.



Aaargh! I missed that.

Well, I think I'll soldier on with what I've got - otherwise I feel there's always a danger of constantly updating one's stash (which may be of course what most modellers actually do and it's me who buys all the ancient leftover stuff!)

Thanks anyway Damon.

Brian
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 09:11 AM UTC
Boy, am I glad that all I said was, "I WANT ONE OF THESE!"

GulfWarrior
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2019 - 09:14 AM UTC

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Boy, am I glad that all I said was, "I WANT ONE OF THESE!"




Rabble rouser!

18Bravo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 02:49 PM UTC

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Ummm... Whuh? I know a Paladin chief who can make the shot in about thirty seconds.




Thanks for posting that. I seem to recall doing a hipshoot with the old M109A1. We knew that there'd be a hipshoot on this particular road march and there were only a few Firing Points where you could shoot from. The XO had figured out the basics and had them available so when the call came in, he had already figured out a good azimuth of lay for the base piece. From the time the howitzer STOPPED until the first round went down range was just under two minutes. Not bad for laying with an M2 compass.



You're welcome. I know what you mean. At Fort McCoy, there are only two firing points (421, and of course, everyone's favorite - four two oh) at the extreme southeast corner of the base. We generally had to do a map recon and find likely areas to fire an emergency fire mission from during a survivability move. In some areas you can do a hip shot right from the road, using as you said, an M2 and a trajectory chart from FT 105-AS-4.There's even a blurb in one of the ATP's about taking a SWAG and adjusting from there.

Edit: Oops, my bad! Perhaps I should have read the rest of the thread before posting. As laid down in the ancient texts, I shall now keep the thread relevant.

Brian, if you want to do something cool with your M108, add weld seams to the hulls. Add short pieces of tube to the bow to replace those lumps.
For Über-coolness, try this:
put two engineer stakes, tent stakes, whatever, on the ground of your diorama about six or seven scale meters apart. Lay a piece of "engineer tape" between them and tie them off. This is your azimuth of fire. Set the piece right next to the engineer tape. Now place one of the red and white striped aiming poles right next to the piece on the left hand side. Make it in line with the pantel (roughly in line with gap between the fourth and fifth road wheel.) Never seen this in a diorama for any SPG. Well except for mine.

And pardon me, but someone asked: RSOP = reconnaissance, selection, occupation of a position.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 06:51 PM UTC

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Boy, am I glad that all I said was, "I WANT ONE OF THESE!"




Rabble rouser!






You NOTICED!!!

PS- Can't we get back to M108s..? Or has the complexion of this thread been altered so far as to make that impossible..?
BootsDMS
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Posted: Friday, May 24, 2019 - 06:31 AM UTC


Brian, if you want to do something cool with your M108, add weld seams to the hulls. Add short pieces of tube to the bow to replace those lumps.
For Über-coolness, try this:
put two engineer stakes, tent stakes, whatever, on the ground of your diorama about six or seven scale meters apart. Lay a piece of "engineer tape" between them and tie them off. This is your azimuth of fire. Set the piece right next to the engineer tape. Now place one of the red and white striped aiming poles right next to the piece on the left hand side. Make it in line with the pantel (roughly in line with gap between the fourth and fifth road wheel.) Never seen this in a diorama for any SPG. Well except for mine.

Robert,

Many thanks; however, I think this one will be depicted as a Belgian vehicle just in travel mode. One day I do indeed hope to replicate an SP at the firing point but that might have to wait on sufficient figures and details of all the stuff being prepped for firing - not just the rounds themselves but the charges, fuzes etc. Not impossible I'm sure but fair bit of work - or at least for me; perhaps I'll save it for a Brit M109.

Thanks again.

Brian
27-1025
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Posted: Friday, May 24, 2019 - 10:12 AM UTC

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Boy, am I glad that all I said was, "I WANT ONE OF THESE!"




Rabble rouser!






You NOTICED!!!

PS- Can't we get back to M108s..? Or has the complexion of this thread been altered so far as to make that impossible..?



That train left the station a long time ago
salt6
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Posted: Friday, May 24, 2019 - 10:44 AM UTC
Two things to consider between the M019 and the M108: rate of fire and danger close.