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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Stug iv at Arnhem
Floridabucco
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 07:09 AM UTC
Hello, I was wondering if anyone knows if there were Stug iv's fighting in Arnhem? I realize that the time period is correct, however all I seem to find are Stug iii photos.

I don't know if someone has a list of German vehicles used or even if something like that exists as from my reading seems to be a mix of vehicles and units, thrown into the battle as they became available.

Thank you for your help,
Eric
petbat
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 07:27 AM UTC
Hi Eric

No Stug IV equipped units in Arnhem of the greater 'Market Garden' Campaign areas. There were some Jagdpanzer IV, but no Stug IV
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 07:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

No Stug IV equipped units in Arnhem of the greater 'Market Garden' Campaign areas. There were some Jagdpanzer IV, but no Stug IV



Correct. See order of battle here: http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/order.htm
Floridabucco
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 07:43 AM UTC
Wow guys...thanks for the quick replies.
marcb
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 11:38 AM UTC
Do you have a Stug IV, and are you looking for a scenario?
panzerbob01
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 12:09 PM UTC
Just as a sort of side-note: The StuG IV was mostly sent to the east, where there was a constant big demand for anything mobilizing an AT gun. Probably few to none were issued to any of the western area infantry divisions prior to Normandy, as they would have been too valuable to send there in the face of that eastern need. Many of the units in the west were there for rest and rebuilding, and much of their better equipment was stripped off and issued to other units in the east - and these refurb units were only re-equipped when ready to return to the east front. I would expect likely few of these StuG IV which did start shipping west after June 1944 would have reached deployment in field units by Sept 1944, when Arnhem impacted history.

But the StuG IV does show up in the west a bit later on...

Just a thought.

Bob
Floridabucco
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 02:56 PM UTC
Not really looking for a scenario. I want to do a diorama of Arnhem after the battle, with Germans rounding up British prisoners, already have a captured Bronco airborne jeep, wanted to put some armor also, and already have the Dragon Stug IV with zimm in my stash, and did not want to have to build another...bit no biggie...just ordered the Dragon STUG III with zimm...just have to now be patient for it to arrive.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 03:50 PM UTC
There were plenty of StuG III at Arnhem - 9th SS Panzer Div. Lots of pretty good photos available for you to work from with a StuG III in zimm in town!

Bob
brekinapez
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Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 04:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not really looking for a scenario. I want to do a diorama of Arnhem after the battle, with Germans rounding up British prisoners, already have a captured Bronco airborne jeep, wanted to put some armor also, and already have the Dragon Stug IV with zimm in my stash, and did not want to have to build another...bit no biggie...just ordered the Dragon STUG III with zimm...just have to now be patient for it to arrive.



You could always start the IV while you're waiting...
marcb
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 05:47 AM UTC
For Arnhem, the Stugs most pictured were from St.Br. 280. They had a large wooden storage box across the engine deck, and the two spare road wheels were relocated to the aft fenders. The camo was factory applied.













Here's the Stug IV allocation list from Martin Block. Scroll down to the last pages.

http://missinglinks2.tripod.com/stugiv.pdf

Stug IV were mostly issued to Infantry Divisions. Do you have the early or mid one?


Regards,

Marc
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 09:51 AM UTC
I would be cautious about asserting that any StuG III - whether in 9th SS Panzer Div, Luftwaffe Stmgschts-Abt 2, or any other units active at Arnhem in Sep 1944 - had any factory-applied camo scheme.

OKW issued orders to production plants and to Nibelungenwerke-St. Valentine (primary refurbishment plant) to establish designs and begin application of standardize "factory camouflage" only as of 19 Aug 1944. It is highly unlikely that any of the Arnhem StuG III were newly-made vehicles - all of the photos show "very seasoned" StuGs with diverse add-ons, detail modifications, etc. - and where one can find the zimm, that zimm is very chipped and worn. And chipped areas painted over. So none of these StuG could have been produced within the "month", equipped, and sent to Holland for combat and already have achieved their worn look by Arnhem!

With the great abundance of real photos "out there", it should be pretty easy to pick a vehicle in some photo and use that and its location as a sort of practical guide for modeling an example of a type in some area-of-operation. There are lots of good Arnhem photos, so picking a likely paint-scheme for a "possible" Arnhem vehicle is relatively clear and convenient - even if one didn't want to try and model a specific and known historical individual.

Cheers! Bob

In fact, after seeing all those fine Arnhem StuG III pics.... I'm feeling the urge to pull up a III-G and build it!
marcb
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 10:19 AM UTC
Bob,

I'm basing my knowledge on Concord's "German armored units at Arnhem", by Marcel Zwarts.
The first factory pattern for al vehicles was a variant of the ambush scheme, as seen on the Schurzen in the pics. This was started when zimmerit was still applied. (Also seen on Panthers.) Stug Brigade 280 added the wooden stowage box to all their Stugs.







Regards,

Marc


marcb
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 10:32 AM UTC
Here are two pics of a Stug IV with zimm and factory pattern taken at Krupp.





I can't explain the timeline of the Stugs from Stug Br 280, just ID ing the pattern.


Regards,

Marc
marcb
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 11:25 AM UTC
Btw, the Arnhem book shows the Stugs from St Br 280 without Rundumsfeuergerat fitted. The opening would have been closed with a plate with six bolts. The two 10.5 cm Stuh's are seen with a regular (infantry) MG 42 on the roof. The Stug's seem to have had a field made MG42 mount fitted. I'll post a scan tomorrow.

Regards,

Marc
Floridabucco
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 11:55 AM UTC
Thank you for the information everyone, looks like I started a good conversation with lots of information for modellers to use.

A couple questions on the Stug III's...
1. The wooden box on back of the stugs...was this inside the metal storage "enclosure" around the back of the stug, and looking at EBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tank-Workshop-1-35-Panzer-III-StuG-III-Hull-Width-Short-Rear-Stowage-Box-353069/183702456034?hash=item2ac58506e2:g:daoAAOSwFXla1-Ox&frcectupt=true
would this be the correct box?

2. Did the Stug III's of Brigade 280 have any tactical, vehicle numbers or national markings on them...all the pictures seem totally void of any markings.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 12:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here are two pics of a Stug IV with zimm and factory pattern taken at Krupp.





I can't explain the timeline of the Stugs from Stug Br 280, just ID ing the pattern.


Regards,

Marc



If those StuG IV are examples of factory paint schemes (neither pictured scheme meets any definition of the so-called Hinterhalt-tarnung "ambush scheme" specified for application as of 19 August 1944), they certainly don't show the schemes visible on the Arnhem StuG IIIs.

But some of the Arnhem pictures do show a version of the so-called "ambush scheme" - noting that some have the small painted dots in darker color-bands. My understanding is that some Waffen-SS units were actually painting their vehicles with such "ambush" patterns before August, 1944 (the Waffen-SS crew were tasked to paint their steeds just as were Heer crew were - but lots of photos suggest that many Waffen-SS schemes were more detailed, more elaborate, and sometimes more consistent within units then were most Heer examples. Hypotheses about why this might have been are many. A carefully-nurtured sense of elite status among them...) That Waffen-SS units did do some of these schemes well before Aug 1944 could explain why we see these apparent schemes on what are clearly NOT new vehicles at Arnhem in Sep 1944 - they are not new nor newly-painted vehicles, but are vehicles wearing some versions of what later became defined as "ambush schemes".

Cheers! Bob
obg153
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 12:56 PM UTC
That ebay listing showed one for $9.99 and another for $14.99. That box doesn't seem to have any woodgrain detail. I'd rather spend the $$ on a PE latch set and scratch the box from real wood. Then you could add wear & tear much easier. Also, in Cornelius Ryan's book, "A Bridge Too Far," there are a couple instances noted where the Allied advance was held up by a single, well-sited SPG. The type isn't mentioned, but I could imagine a Stug III being that gun.
m4sherman
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 01:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you for the information everyone, looks like I started a good conversation with lots of information for modellers to use.

A couple questions on the Stug III's...
1. The wooden box on back of the stugs...was this inside the metal storage "enclosure" around the back of the stug, and looking at EBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tank-Workshop-1-35-Panzer-III-StuG-III-Hull-Width-Short-Rear-Stowage-Box-353069/183702456034?hash=item2ac58506e2:g:daoAAOSwFXla1-Ox&frcectupt=true
would this be the correct box?

2. Did the Stug III's of Brigade 280 have any tactical, vehicle numbers or national markings on them...all the pictures seem totally void of any markings.



I can answer parts of question 1. The box is inside the metal enclosure. If it is attached in some way is not clear in these pictures. The Tank Workshop box was made by me a long time ago, for the Tamiya Stug G kit. It was intended to be a generic metal box and has no wood grain detail. It still would work, after you cover it with all that stowage, branches etc.
GazzaS
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 02:31 PM UTC
The 17th SS Division Gotz von Berlichingen was equipped with 42 StuG IV. They fought at Carentan shortly after the D-day landings.

...if you're still looking for the right place to use them.

Gaz
marcb
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2019 - 05:20 AM UTC
There's a good thread on Stug Brigade 280 on the Feldgrau forum.

Allocations were:

StuG III=22 in September 1943
StuH 42=9 in September 1943
StuG III=22 in August 1944
StuH 42=9 in August 1944
StuG III=17 in September 1944
StuH 42=9 in September 1944
StuH 42=12 in October 1944
StuG III=17 in December 1944
Panzer IV/70(V)=3 in March 1945


See here:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11413


The pics show the wooden box much lighter than the Stug itself. It could be they were left unpainted. The stowage rail was factory fitted, so the dimensions were standardized. You can deduce the dimensions of the box from that. The box slightly overlapped the engine deck air intake cowl, towards the front.

Here's the collection of pics from Arnhem by German photographers:
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-search/search/_1557770320/?search[view]=gallery


Here's a pic, with what could be a field added mg mount. Possibly based on the AA tripod.


The only possible marking could be this Balkenkreuz on the rear.



Eric,

What Stug IV kit do you have?
marcb
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2019 - 09:42 AM UTC
The Hinterhalt/ ambush scheme was done in a large dot and small dot version. See fe the Panther versions as depicted in the book by Roddy Mac Dougall and Martin Block.

This variation was also seen on fe the Sturmpanzer IV/ Brummbar.






The versions on the Stug III and IV only differed in being small dot and large dot.


Regards,

Marc
Floridabucco
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2019 - 09:50 AM UTC
I have the Dragon early Stug IV with zimmerit (#6576)....I just ordered Dragon Stug III with zimmerit (#6891)....just not going to use the concrete armor.....for the Arnhem diorama.
Floridabucco
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2019 - 09:53 AM UTC
WoW Marc..what an awesome database for pictures...thank you!!
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2019 - 11:41 AM UTC
Welcome!

I've done this kit as a vehicle with Ostketten and faded whitewash. Love the look of the Stug IV.

You have a wide variety of fronts you can chose from. Normandy, Italy, Hungary, etc, etc...

Some nice pics.

Germany, post war. Note early Stug III mantlet and possible AA mg ring.


Italy, captured. Note concrete armor.


Normandy, captured


Proskurov, Ukraine




Camouflaged


And a good site for more:
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/stug-iv/


Have fun.

Floridabucco
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2019 - 12:53 PM UTC
looks like that last picture has a tiger track in the front for protection.