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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Panther Ammo
Khouli
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 29 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2020 - 06:41 PM UTC
Hi,

A real silly question, but what kind of ammo did the Panther G load?

More specifically, if anyone knows of a pictorial guide - and colour chart that would be great.

Thanks in anticipation
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2020 - 07:15 PM UTC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_KwK_42



I'm not sure the H.E.Hollow charge shell and the Smoke shell were used by Panther crews though...

H.P.
Khouli
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2020 - 11:45 PM UTC
Thanks for the information - most useful. But, the picture shows Kwk 40 ammo - but i'm guessing the colour would be the same for Kwk 42 AP ammo?
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2020 - 05:15 AM UTC
Weren't HE shells painted yellow, or with a yellow band? The other thing is that by the time the Panther was in largescale use, the Germans were short of brass and were using rolled steel cases, heavily greased to prevent rust.
Khouli
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2020 - 06:15 PM UTC
Hi Mate,

I think you're right - but HE and AP are different and I was thinking more about the AP load.

As for the steel v brass casings - well I really don't know. Perhaps somebody could let us know?
spongya
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODELGEEK
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Budapest, Hungary
Joined: February 01, 2005
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2020 - 10:24 PM UTC
Timely topic, as I am just about to paint the Takom and RFM Panthers' ammunition... Will follow.

About the steel casing: normally they were covered by enamel coating, and were normally green (and these casings sometimes got stuck in the barrel), but I could not find any info about when they were introduced, and how many Panthers were equipped with them. Sometimes you can see models with a mixed loadout (brass/steel), which is probably not realistic, but makes for an interesting visual...
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 12:13 AM UTC
German ammo datas and informations :

http://nebula.wsimg.com/0b70410da4c66b1e5aa0687aec2549db?AccessKeyId=390FC1B05917598DCDF5&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

H.P.
Steffen23
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 21, 2013
KitMaker: 38 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 12:57 AM UTC
Hi,
as I work in a Ammo-factory close to Nürnberg I asked our "museum-manager" (it is only a small collection not for public ) if there is a timetable of the different materials used for cartriges. The answer was "no": Once the lay-out of the cartrige was ready it was just about what material was on stock. They took what they get....
Alltough this was for small arms it would be the same with the big ones: Steel, steel painted, brass, ... whatever.
I'm sure you can even mix it!

Stay healthy!
Steffen
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 09:58 AM UTC
As to the actual shells carried, tanks would have mainly AP, Panzergranate (Pzgr) 39/42 and a few Panzergranate (Pzgr) 40/42, a very high velocity round, the German equivalent of APCR; with some HE, Sprenggrenate 42, for firing at infantry and A/T positions (AP is ineffective against a dug in anti-tank gun, you need a bursting charge to kill the crew). The authorised maximum load was 79 rounds, but if expecting trouble this did not prevent crews from carrying more. This info from the Haynes "Panther" title.
Khouli
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 05:49 PM UTC
In the Gulf, we found that APFSDS was very effective against dug-in armour. Fin would go straight through the berm and punch into the tank. But, of course, this was a KE round so Haynes is probably right about early AP (shaped charge) ammunition being ineffective against gun crews. Mind, you, if you can knock out the gun, the crew are essentially ballast.

I think the Panther G load-out was more than 79 - 82 or 84?
Ringleheim
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Florida, United States
Joined: September 04, 2009
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Posted: Monday, April 20, 2020 - 04:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,
as I work in a Ammo-factory close to Nürnberg I asked our "museum-manager" (it is only a small collection not for public ) if there is a timetable of the different materials used for cartriges. The answer was "no": Once the lay-out of the cartrige was ready it was just about what material was on stock. They took what they get....
Alltough this was for small arms it would be the same with the big ones: Steel, steel painted, brass, ... whatever.
I'm sure you can even mix it!

Stay healthy!
Steffen



Very interesting post. I think most modelers go with the assumption that the ammo being used by a given unit or single tank within a unit would have been re-outfitted with ammunition coming from a single supply at a single time. I.E., the ammunition would be whatever it happened to be at that moment (as you mention) but it probably wouldn't end up as a mix of differing types as those would have to come from different supplies at different times.

I guess the assumption is the tank would go through ammo quickly enough that it wouldn't have rounds hanging around from various re-supplies.

I think it makes sense to make all the ammunition a single type (brass casings let's say) but it definitely looks more visually interesting to mix it up!

So I guess it is left to the taste of the specific modeler.

(Like lots of things!)